Comments on: Separation of Developer and Community http://winterblink.com/2008/08/28/separation-of-developer-and-community/ made from 60% post-consumer recycled electrons Tue, 06 Jul 2010 13:15:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Marina http://winterblink.com/2008/08/28/separation-of-developer-and-community/comment-page-1/#comment-4698 Marina Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:36:59 +0000 http://winterblink.com/?p=313#comment-4698 Good words. Good words.

]]> By: James Egan http://winterblink.com/2008/08/28/separation-of-developer-and-community/comment-page-1/#comment-3816 James Egan Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:54:28 +0000 http://winterblink.com/?p=313#comment-3816 To date, there's no other MMO developer out there that pushes the limits of what a massively multiplayer game can be like CCP Games does. That being said, I think it was inevitable that there would be distance between devs and the community, as the ranks swell on both sides. Aside from the t20 incident (and it still amazes me that he wasn't fired over this) -- that one glaring misstep -- CCP Games has delivered on a great game. Certainly one with some weaknesses, but no game is perfect. More problems will always keep surfacing, but as long as they're improving the game and communicating how/why they're doing so, while assuring the players that their views/concerns matter, then they're doing all they can and should do as game developers. If they can establish and maintain this balance, all will be well. On the other end of the dynamic, aside from the occasional forum jackass, the community is really one of the game's biggest strengths. Certainly in-game there are a few tools in public channels, but most people I've spoken with during my time in EVE are intelligent and generally helpful; they really care about the game. I haven't been playing as long as Winterblink so I never got to experience the game as it was in the beginning, on a closer level between devs and players. I really wish I could've been a part of that -- it's an aspect of EVE that newer players just can't have. Some people are really down on the CSM, but I think it'll grow into something significant given enough time. As the players, we may not really come to realize this for quite some time -- and maybe not for a few more elections -- but I really think this can work; true, lasting change generally happens slowly over time. My .02 anyway. EVE will continue on as a game well into the future, as other MMOs slowly wither and die out in the coming years. There are no other sci-fi MMO titles currently out that compare, and the new crop of competing MMOs to be released over the next few years still won't be able to touch EVE, in my estimation. Things are looking pretty good for CCP and the players too. Hopefully they'll be able to bridge the developer-player gap as it's one of the key issues that affects the future of the game. This was definitely one of your better posts Winterblink. Keep it up! To date, there’s no other MMO developer out there that pushes the limits of what a massively multiplayer game can be like CCP Games does. That being said, I think it was inevitable that there would be distance between devs and the community, as the ranks swell on both sides. Aside from the t20 incident (and it still amazes me that he wasn’t fired over this) — that one glaring misstep — CCP Games has delivered on a great game. Certainly one with some weaknesses, but no game is perfect. More problems will always keep surfacing, but as long as they’re improving the game and communicating how/why they’re doing so, while assuring the players that their views/concerns matter, then they’re doing all they can and should do as game developers. If they can establish and maintain this balance, all will be well.

On the other end of the dynamic, aside from the occasional forum jackass, the community is really one of the game’s biggest strengths. Certainly in-game there are a few tools in public channels, but most people I’ve spoken with during my time in EVE are intelligent and generally helpful; they really care about the game.

I haven’t been playing as long as Winterblink so I never got to experience the game as it was in the beginning, on a closer level between devs and players. I really wish I could’ve been a part of that — it’s an aspect of EVE that newer players just can’t have.

Some people are really down on the CSM, but I think it’ll grow into something significant given enough time. As the players, we may not really come to realize this for quite some time — and maybe not for a few more elections — but I really think this can work; true, lasting change generally happens slowly over time. My .02 anyway.

EVE will continue on as a game well into the future, as other MMOs slowly wither and die out in the coming years. There are no other sci-fi MMO titles currently out that compare, and the new crop of competing MMOs to be released over the next few years still won’t be able to touch EVE, in my estimation. Things are looking pretty good for CCP and the players too. Hopefully they’ll be able to bridge the developer-player gap as it’s one of the key issues that affects the future of the game. This was definitely one of your better posts Winterblink. Keep it up!

]]> By: Mediastinum http://winterblink.com/2008/08/28/separation-of-developer-and-community/comment-page-1/#comment-3814 Mediastinum Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:22:59 +0000 http://winterblink.com/?p=313#comment-3814 Great post! While reading I couldn't help but remember another very large MMO, SWG Online, that had the second largest player-base with an IP that just could not lose. If you played that particular game you remember the seperation of Dev and player, heavy-handed forum moderation, bitter vocal minority using very active forums, etc. In comparison, CCP has much more interest in EvE then my perception of SOE/SWG. And with that being said, I believe that SOE made such an example within the gaming industry regarding the development and management of SWG that other MMO's had to stand up and take notice of how not to develop a game and interact with the player base. Yes, CCP is getting big and the player base is increasing, but I believe also that they are maintaining a quality game with sufficient interaction. I just found your blog, I look forward to reading your past and future posts. Take care, Winterblink, one of these days I'll meet you ING and chat you up. -Media Great post! While reading I couldn’t help but remember another very large MMO, SWG Online, that had the second largest player-base with an IP that just could not lose. If you played that particular game you remember the seperation of Dev and player, heavy-handed forum moderation, bitter vocal minority using very active forums, etc. In comparison, CCP has much more interest in EvE then my perception of SOE/SWG. And with that being said, I believe that SOE made such an example within the gaming industry regarding the development and management of SWG that other MMO’s had to stand up and take notice of how not to develop a game and interact with the player base.

Yes, CCP is getting big and the player base is increasing, but I believe also that they are maintaining a quality game with sufficient interaction.

I just found your blog, I look forward to reading your past and future posts. Take care, Winterblink, one of these days I’ll meet you ING and chat you up.

-Media

]]> By: Solemn Phoenix http://winterblink.com/2008/08/28/separation-of-developer-and-community/comment-page-1/#comment-3647 Solemn Phoenix Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:45:39 +0000 http://winterblink.com/?p=313#comment-3647 Your post hits a nerve. EVE has some characteristics by design that give it an edge compared to the competition, but also against time. The dev-to-player discussion need not be everyday or anything of the sort, as long as there is communication going on. True, the CSM is/was a good idea, but as a new player (that is not reminiscent of the good ol' days :P ) I can't really say I've seen neither "serious work" done, nor complete neglect. Give it some time maybe? Your post hits a nerve. EVE has some characteristics by design that give it an edge compared to the competition, but also against time.

The dev-to-player discussion need not be everyday or anything of the sort, as long as there is communication going on. True, the CSM is/was a good idea, but as a new player (that is not reminiscent of the good ol’ days :P ) I can’t really say I’ve seen neither “serious work” done, nor complete neglect. Give it some time maybe?

]]> By: Nick http://winterblink.com/2008/08/28/separation-of-developer-and-community/comment-page-1/#comment-3478 Nick Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:33:54 +0000 http://winterblink.com/?p=313#comment-3478 Very cool and well thought out article. It never occurred to me to even consider this a problem. Would like to offer you an invite to GameBeing but have no clue where to send invite. www.gamebeing.com Very cool and well thought out article. It never occurred to me to even consider this a problem.

Would like to offer you an invite to GameBeing but have no clue where to send invite. http://www.gamebeing.com

]]> By: Cor http://winterblink.com/2008/08/28/separation-of-developer-and-community/comment-page-1/#comment-3337 Cor Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:23:11 +0000 http://winterblink.com/?p=313#comment-3337 Yeah, I do fondly remember back when the devs were actually involved on the forums. (And the amount of idiots was pleasantly lower...) I don't really think it's a matter of dev resources/time; I've always seen the dev responses as a bit of a coffee-break kind of thing, not a *job* per se. And there is no required dev involvement per player, after all - it's not a linear ratio requiring X devs per Y players. As Blinky said, it's the politics and marketing department. And people are such intolerable idiots. :/ Yeah, I do fondly remember back when the devs were actually involved on the forums. (And the amount of idiots was pleasantly lower…)

I don’t really think it’s a matter of dev resources/time; I’ve always seen the dev responses as a bit of a coffee-break kind of thing, not a *job* per se. And there is no required dev involvement per player, after all – it’s not a linear ratio requiring X devs per Y players.

As Blinky said, it’s the politics and marketing department. And people are such intolerable idiots. :/

]]> By: Shalkis http://winterblink.com/2008/08/28/separation-of-developer-and-community/comment-page-1/#comment-3324 Shalkis Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:27:57 +0000 http://winterblink.com/?p=313#comment-3324 The problem is, as always, limited resources. A developer that's replying to a customer is a developer that's not programming. And EvE has definitely reached the point where replying to customers can be a full-time job. Hence, the community managers. But you can go overboard with those as well. EvE's forum is not as bad as WoW's forum, where the CMs don't have access to developers and can do little more than to keep the porn away and try to calm things down. Employess will start to see the forums as a cesspool, and the customers start to see the company residing in it's own ivory tower. What MMOs need is a hybrid CM. CMs that are tech-oriented and can read and understand design, implementation and policy documents. Assuming there is documentation, that is. In this particular case, there wasn't or the documentation was too hard to find. The particular GM that moved those highsec capital ships might not have even been employed at the time when some other GM made a judgement call and allowed non-agressive capitals to stay. A good CRM system can help keep track of stuff like that, but ultimately it boils down to communication and documentation. The problem is, as always, limited resources. A developer that’s replying to a customer is a developer that’s not programming. And EvE has definitely reached the point where replying to customers can be a full-time job. Hence, the community managers.

But you can go overboard with those as well. EvE’s forum is not as bad as WoW’s forum, where the CMs don’t have access to developers and can do little more than to keep the porn away and try to calm things down. Employess will start to see the forums as a cesspool, and the customers start to see the company residing in it’s own ivory tower.

What MMOs need is a hybrid CM. CMs that are tech-oriented and can read and understand design, implementation and policy documents. Assuming there is documentation, that is.

In this particular case, there wasn’t or the documentation was too hard to find. The particular GM that moved those highsec capital ships might not have even been employed at the time when some other GM made a judgement call and allowed non-agressive capitals to stay. A good CRM system can help keep track of stuff like that, but ultimately it boils down to communication and documentation.

]]> By: CrazyKinux http://winterblink.com/2008/08/28/separation-of-developer-and-community/comment-page-1/#comment-3323 CrazyKinux Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:09:52 +0000 http://winterblink.com/?p=313#comment-3323 Agree with you 100% Blinky! Funny that you put out this article today. I was going over the capital-ship-tempest-in-a-glass thread - all 30-something pages - and couldn't notice the whole US vs. THEM point of views, and almost replied to the thread, but chose the wisest decision and moved on. I'm always flabbergasted by the whole "CCP as the mean overbearing developers and the player is always right" attitude. Don't they just get it? CCP wants the game to be successful. CCP wants to be in business. CCP wants to have a happy, paying client base. CCP wants to do the right thing to ensure that the player base grows. CCP wants a balanced game so that everyone can get their carrot and the player base grows. That's not too difficult to get is it? I'm only reassured when I remind myself that the forums are only used by 10% of the EVE population. Then again, there's a lot of idiots in those 25,000 players. I miss the good ol' days too... Agree with you 100% Blinky!

Funny that you put out this article today. I was going over the capital-ship-tempest-in-a-glass thread – all 30-something pages – and couldn’t notice the whole US vs. THEM point of views, and almost replied to the thread, but chose the wisest decision and moved on.

I’m always flabbergasted by the whole “CCP as the mean overbearing developers and the player is always right” attitude. Don’t they just get it?

CCP wants the game to be successful.
CCP wants to be in business.
CCP wants to have a happy, paying client base.
CCP wants to do the right thing to ensure that the player base grows.
CCP wants a balanced game so that everyone can get their carrot and the player base grows.

That’s not too difficult to get is it? I’m only reassured when I remind myself that the forums are only used by 10% of the EVE population. Then again, there’s a lot of idiots in those 25,000 players.

I miss the good ol’ days too…

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